Drone Warfare with Tereza Pultarova

In this episode, we interview science and tech journalist Tereza Pultarova on her work with drone warfare in the ongoing Russian-Ukrainian War.

More of Tereza's work can be found here: 

https://spectrum.ieee.org/autonomous-drone-warfare

https://x.com/TerezaPultarova

Transcript

Unknown: 1:02

Hello. I'm Captain Matthew Turner. Today I'm interviewing Miss Theresa polterrova. She is a London based science and technology journalist specializing in space, aerospace and defense technologies. Currently freelance. She has previously worked as a reporter@space.com in engineering and technology her investigation into harassment and labor law breaches at the European Space Agency was nominated for the 2025 Steve Connor award in investigative journalism. Her reporting on Ukrainian defense tech innovation has been shortlisted for Defense Media Awards 2025 she is currently working on her debut novel. In this interview, we discuss current defense technology in Ukraine and the implications it has on wider warfare. What initially drew you to cover drones and autonomous warfare in Ukraine? Well, originally, I was born behind Iron Curtain. I was born in the Czechoslovakia, which now is Czech Republic on Slovakia. So I was born in the Czech part of Czechoslovakia, so I sort of have a certain I would say, I've lived in London for, you know, 15 years, but I have definitely some cultural, you know, strong cultural connection to the situation with Russia, with Ukraine. When the war started, I was mostly writing about space. But when the war started, I felt very strongly, you know, affected by it, because I feel like I haven't experienced that much of like the communism and the Russian kind of enforced totalitarian regime that, you know, my parents grew up in, and my grandparents spent most of their life in, but I grew up listening to all these stories like awful all that was. And when Russia invaded Ukraine, I just really, and I think a lot of people in from this region, we had a very strong kind of, like, almost like a somatic reaction to it, like you just kind of understand what these people are fighting for and why they want the independence and why they want to be more of a part of, you know, the bigger European kind of world, and have the opportunities that you know we have as Europeans. So I sort of, like wanted to start somehow writing about Ukraine. And first I was really writing about the space sector, because that's what I that's I covered space. Ukraine has a very interesting like history in space. A lot of Russian rockets were actually manufactured in Ukraine, and there was a lot to explore in that. But then one thing led to another, led to another, and then I started talking to people who were working in the defense effort, because what happened in Ukraine when the war started, essentially like everybody who had technical skills, and that's a lot of people in Ukraine, because Ukraine, interestingly, has, I think, the highest kind of number of people educated in engineering and technology in Europe. Bar, I think Germany. I think Germany has more engineers per capita and technically educated people per capita than Ukraine. But Ukraine is really a very technically educated country, and a lot of Western firms before the war had, like, their outsourced their like, software development and stuff like that. And all these people who had worked in these international companies before the war, they just, when the war started, joined the war effort by, you know, people doing drones, combining with people doing software. And this very vibrant technological ecosystems sprang up, and they were really addressing the needs of the Ukrainian forces. Because the Ukrainians, they didn't have the weaponry. The West was very cautious providing them weaponry. So they started buying these off the shelf, drones, and innovating and putting explosives onto them and turning them into very low cost, very effective killing machines. And it wasn't just that they were, like buying them of the shell from Amazon, from like Mavic. They were really starting inventing their own and improving them and all sorts of things. So I got sort of from like reporting on the Ukrainian space technology and history in space to reporting on these, like early efforts with drones, and then I just kept sort of following this line of work. What would you say is the most surprising or under reported findings that you've been finding during your research and time there under reported finding? I mean, for me, what I always hear the Ukrainians say, and they're very passionate, and they really want to stress this. They really want the West to understand the risks of drones and drone warfare and the growing autonomy, like they always say, like the people in the West don't understand that with the invention of these war drones, these cheap, off the shelf killer drones, you essentially don't need a suicide suicide attacker anymore. You know you can just anybody. Can buy a drone and put some explosives onto it and fly it 10 kilometers away into a football arena and explode it and kill a bunch of people, and nobody would ever know where this came. From they're very, kind of passionate about stressing this that people in the West don't realize, don't understand how dangerous this is, and that is just like a matter of time when somebody will use it in a Western country to commit terrorist attack and kill a lot of people, and they may never be fine, because they will be 10 kilometers away, you know, in their basement or something controlling the drone with remotely. And that's what I always stress how if you don't have the technology to defend to it, like defend against it, which is really the jammers that can, you know, sever the radio connections, then it's very difficult to take it down. And these drones, they're very fast, so the moment you hear them, you know, they're small, so you don't really see them until they're very close to you. And once you hear them, it's they're just too close and fly at like 200 kilometers per hour. So you can't really outrun them. It's very difficult, like, to shoot them down. You know, it's difficult once they become autonomous, it's even more difficult because then they can overcome the jamming. So it doesn't really help if there is a jammer anymore, because they can target, they lock on the target, and they just complete the mission of their own. So then you need to have these specialized drone interceptors. And it's very it's very disturbing to really think about this context, because already, like al Qaeda is using drones somewhere in Africa in something that is very cheap. Anybody can afford to have it. It's not that difficult to learn, ultimately, to use it. So in your opinion, how advanced are the systems that are currently being deployed? Are they like truly autonomous, or is there still an element of human direction in there? Yes. So autonomy has they generally like divided into three phases. So one is kind of the autonomous navigation, which means, when you have GPS jamming, or any other these satellite navigation systems, which they're very easily jammed because the satellites are far away, so the signal is quite weak, so it's very easy to jam it. It's very easy to spoof it. And it's happening in Ukraine, all over the place. It's happening in the Middle East, all over the place, in the Baltics, you know, planes flying in Northern Europe frequently have problems because the jamming is kind of spilling over into these regions as well. So in Ukraine, before they started working with autonomy, this GPS jimming would really stop the drones. The drone would lose its spatial awareness, and that it would probably like either crash down or it would flying in a circle until it would run out of battery. So they started looking at technology to enable the drone to cover certain distances, or at least return to the base autonomously based on optical navigation. So the drone has a camera and it has onboard maps, and just the same way, like you will look at look at a map and try to identify spots in around you, to understand where you are, and then follow the route. So the drone does the same thing. It has the map, and it sees with optical camera, the AI algorithm identifies the various kind of waypoints, and then it helps the drone get to where it needs to get, even if it doesn't have GPS. So that's one part of the autonomy, then the other part is guidance to the target. So let's say you have a tank, and the tank is protected with a jammer, and the jammer can have a reach of, I don't know, let's say, 300 meters. So the drone can go all the way to the edge of this jamming bubble, and then it can't get to the tongue, because there is a jamming which would sever the connection with the operator and with the satellites or whatever, and it would just fall down. So what they do is they have an algorithm that can identify the tank, and it locks on that target. Say, this is the tank. This is what I want to hit. And then even if the jamming is present, the AI just completes the mission. And that's already been demonstrated. They can do this. My understanding is that so far, it can target like big, big things, like a tank, but it can't, for example, distinguish between a Russian soldier and a Ukrainian soldier. Or it can't track smaller objects, because one thing that it's maybe slowing it down is the fact that most of these killer drones, they are one way. They just want to use technologies, and because there are so many of them, use huge quantities, they can't afford to put the very expensive cameras, very expensive chip sets on them, which would be able to run more sophisticated AIs. And then the third step is smart decision making. So you don't necessarily tell the drone go to this location and target this thing. You just tell them, Okay, in this area, we know that there are some Russians or whatever, and we want you to find them and kill them, and then the drone is able to make some intelligent sort of decisions. Essentially, what Ukrainians want to ultimately do is to be able to have this swarming so you would have some like mixture of like the operator. Of input, and then self organized swarm of drones working together and completing a mission, you know, exchanging data, exchanging information. They could be able to detect that there is jamming in this region. We have to avoid it, or, you know, somebody's been shooting at this drone. So there's a dangerous area. So then it's kind of like the intelligent sort of execution. But I think so far, we're really far away from completely autonomous robots, killing machines, making their decisions what to do. I don't think anybody's really ready to make these choices, and they probably will not be able to make these choices. But definitely it's much more difficult to stop these autonomous drones. You don't need specialist equipment for it. Essentially, specialist intercepted drones that detect the drone and take it down. And it all becomes much more complicated. And now in Ukraine, they're kind of prepared for it. They understand how it works. And again, the message there always is what makes you think in America or in London or anywhere in the West that somebody is not going to use it against you. That's a very scary thought. Yeah, so I guess, like right now in Ukraine, what role is AI really playing in target identification or decision making on the battlefield? I understand that it's really helping them with this last mile navigation, improving the effectiveness of the attacks, because the defense gets more difficult, because you no longer can rely just on these jammers. When the war started, the jammers were very reliable. So then first drones were operating on like, two frequencies. Then these started being jammed, so they had to expand the range of frequencies. Now they're kind of frequency hopping, but still, you can be in a situation when, like, all the frequencies are jammed. So then AI helps you complete the mission, so that you don't lose the drone. They also using the battlefield management systems that put together all these data from all these drones and all sorts other, all sorts of other, like information sources that they have to help them with decision making every drone. And they also have ground robots. So they have so many kind of these digital devices which are capturing video and sending this video back. And you know, you may have 1000s of these sources. So it's not possible for like humans to evaluate and do everything, but they have some AI kind of systems that help them sort of integrate all this data, and based on that, then kind of the standing of this is where the Russians are. This is what they have and make choices as to what to do, the sort of like battle management systems. That's also very important. Definitely a fascinating topic. I think here in the West, we obviously hear a lot from the Ukrainian perspective. But would you say these technologies are giving one side, like the Ukrainian side, a significant advantage, or is it more balanced at this point? No, no. They're very, very in step. They're really both of them. We talk more and hear more about Ukraine, because, I mean, we talk to the Ukrainians, but it's a little bit like some people tell you that Ukrainians have better systems. Some other people will tell you that actually, Russians have better systems. The Russians are definitely investing a lot into this. There may be sanctions that officially prevent them from, you know, getting some like, sophisticated Nvidia chipsets or whatever, but they can still get them through like proxy countries. So they have all the technology that the Ukrainians have, and they're investing enormous amounts of money into ground robots, autonomy, drones, everything. So both of these countries are making fast progress. There is not one who's significantly ahead of the other. I would say that for Ukraine, it's really important because they are a small country and they don't have supply of fresh soldiers. They're not like Russia, who recreate all these men from these poor Eastern republics. They promise them money, and they, you know, they use them as talent for their they don't really care much about their men, but the Ukrainians, do, you know? They don't want their men to be dying, so they're trying to find ways how to a solve the manpower shortage that they have because they really don't have rested soldiers, fresh soldiers. They are exhausted and it's very difficult, and they want to protect them. They don't want to be losing them, because they care about their people taking a step back from the war in Ukraine. What do you think this conflict really reveals about the future of autonomous warfare on a more global scale. Well, I suppose this is the next big evolution, or like, step change in warfare. That's really the direction that this is happening. The Ukrainians always kind of stress that the Western countries need to be doing more. Need to be adjusting. I mean, we've seen this also. It's not just the autonomy, but the shift towards these cheaper, mass produced devices, which suddenly have been revealed as having massive kind of power and potential on the battlefield. And we've seen this in Iran, when, essentially, at some point, the Americans were asking Ukrainians to send them their. Drone technologies, because they were shooting down Shahid drones with Patriot missiles, and a shahid drone costs $30,000 whereas a Patriot missile costs million. It's absolutely nonsensical to be shooting down Shahid with Patriot missiles, but that's kind of the American way of doing things, and they now are asking Ukrainians, or did ask Ukrainians to send them their systems, the drone interceptors, to send them their drone experts to help them master this new technology. It's changed the equation that you still have this heavy artillery and missiles, which you know, it's obviously very effective. It's not like this is going getting obsolete, but you suddenly see that less wealthy players can have in their hands weaponry that is extremely potent and extremely lethal. This is adding on an entirely new dimension to warfare. Would you say that we're seeing the emergence of like, a new kind of arms race centered on AI and drones, I would say that this is really where the vision is, kind of where they're heading for Ukraine is really especially the drone swarming now is like a big goal, because now they say they have fewer men than Russians. So for them, once a single drone operator can control an entire swarm of like, 20 drones, then suddenly that numbers game is not such a big deal for them, because they can sort of like compensate with this swarming. They really are focused on this. And it's not just the aerial robots. Is the ground robots as well, and marine robot, marine drones. So definitely it's changing how the war is done with drones. What already changed more substantially, like you don't have like man on man combat, you know anymore, in these situations, it's really the drones are doing the killing, and the person controlling the drone is 10 kilometers away, because the drones are zooming above the gray zone all the time. They see what's happening, and they will the reconnaissance drones will will see if there's some movement, somebody trying to get somewhere, they will spot them, and immediately they will send the kill drones. So it's when you're being attacked, you don't see your enemy. So it's kind of shifting. You as the attacker, are no longer risking anything, you have an enormous advantage because you far away and the person you're attacking, they don't even see you. The front line. Kind of combat is it's very different. Now, the advantage goes from the defender to the attacker. Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly. That's it. It was a very interesting article. Was there any part of this that was difficult to report? But I wouldn't say difficult to report, but for me, it's like I'm a person with quite a lot of empathy. So I you know, when you talk to these people, everybody you talk to, they've lost friends, they lost brothers, they lost family members. So everybody you talk to in Ukraine among these people, they're tough people. They're very tough people. But there is an enormous amount of grief and trauma underneath all this kind of innovation drive and all this sort of focus on getting these things done. There is it's awful. And I had an opportunity last year to go to Ukraine to visit the brave one, innovation Defense Innovation Forum. So I spent like, four days in Kyiv, and last year, the situation was not as bad as it's now, but still, they did have air raid alerts every night, every single night, at like, around 10pm you would get the sirens, and then you would have to check what's happening. And essentially, the drones, they would be there would be every day above key if there would be, like Shahid drones cruising, and most of the time they were really good at shooting them down. Now there are many more of these drones, and you know, it's a constant, sort of like a psychological terror, in a way, if you will live there, then you have to make a choice, whether you're going to just risk it and sleep, or whether you want to go into a shelter. And you can't go into a shelter every single day. I mean, you need to sleep if you want to function. So people sort of learn to live with this sort of certain level of risk. And most of the time, it hits somewhere else, or it doesn't hit because they shoot it down. But there is like a constant, you know, level of danger and risk and people losing those that they care about. Sitting in London right now, it's very comfortable, and you just realize what these people are going through on a day to day basis for more than four years. You know, it's awful. Do you think that there are any questions that remain unanswered that should have some further investigation? Well, I'm not sure whether questions remain unanswered. I think we just need to keep following in, keep monitoring the situation, because the technology is evolving very fast. You know, I remember I wrote a first R. Article about like autonomy. It was in late 24 and at that time, they were starting to talk about drone interceptors, because that was at the time when the fiber optic drones became a thing, and fiber optic drones can't be jammed. And Ukraine Russians introduced the fiber optic drones. The Ukrainians didn't know how to stop them, so they started talking about drone interceptors, and it was like a lot of people thought it was a fantasy to have, like a drone capturing another drone, or whatever shooting down underneath, like drones hitting each other in the now it's happening. They have it. They have multiple types of these anti drone kind of systems. They have some intercepted drones that can fly multiple times and catch the attacking drone with a net. They have others. They just kind of explode into the attacking drone. And it's incredibly fast, this, this progress of all these technologies. And so I think it's something that we just need to keep watching, keep following, keep discussing. And I think really in the Western world, people probably need to listen to what the Ukrainians are telling them that, you know, this is not these technologies are not going to stay in Ukraine. They're not going to stay in Iran. You just never know when somebody tries to use it in a western city. And some people really say, you can, you can be in a situation when we all would be, you know, scared to have our children play outside. Yes, you would never know what's going to explode somewhere, so it's not going to stop. It's definitely a very interesting subject, and I think something that we should all closely monitor in the future. Absolutely, I think that's actually all the time we have. Thank you so much for taking the time. Ma'am. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me. You.